Growing up in Puglia, Italy where his family has been farming for at least six generations, Tonio Creanza has been witness to a dramatic transition from the civiltà contadina, the peasant's civilization, to a new world of technology and globalization. In response, he founded Messors, a heritage organization focused not just on the conservation of historic places, but also the preservation of a traditional way of life.
Growing up in Puglia, Italy where his family has been farming for at least six generations, Tonio Creanza has been witness to a dramatic transition from the civiltà contadina, the peasant's civilization, to a new world of technology and globalization. In response, he founded Messors, a heritage organization focused not just on the conservation of historic places, but also the preservation of a traditional way of life.
[INTRODUCTION]
[00:00:15] ANNOUNCER: Welcome back to The Open Door, brought to you by The Brown Homestead. Did you miss us? Spring is in the air, which means it's time for Season Three. Usually, we're in the heart of the beautiful Niagara Peninsula. But today, to kick off our season, we are visiting a different peninsula, Bella Italia.
[EPISODE]
[0:00:32] AH: Thank you, Jennifer. That's right. Today, we're headed overseas for the first time for a different perspective on history and heritage. We're travelling only virtually unfortunately, to Puglia, Italy. It's an area rich with agricultural history and the home base of Messors, a unique cultural heritage conservation organization, founded by our guest, Tonio Creanza. Welcome, Tonio. It's great to see you again.
[0:00:58] TC: Great to be here with you guys today. Thank you so much.
[0:01:00] AH: Always wonderful. Now, it's a safe bet that a lot of our listeners are not too familiar with Puglia. So we can start maybe with an overview of the location, and the character of the region, and a little bit of its history.
[0:01:12] TC: Puglia region is this southern eastern part of the boot of Italy, the longest actually region of Italy, from north to south. It extends for over 400 kilometres. What is characteristic of Puglia is the fact that historically speaking, has been the footstep in the Mediterranean Sea. It's been a place for civilization that they've been crossing over over time. Also, the landscape, it's very interesting. Because from north to south, there's a variation in the geomorphology, which creates, and has been creating over time, certain particular type of microclimate to develop cultures, different cultures, a diversity of cultures, diversity of agriculture. The culture connected with the land views of the region.
Within this context, that Messors, and I've been growing up in the central part of Puglia, in the Altamura region, always been intrigued of the richness of history that is in the region.
[0:02:25] AH: When we talk about the history of the region, we can't really talk about it without talking about your family, because you have deep roots there, your family having farmed there for several generations.
[0:02:35] TC: Yes. My family has been there for, I can count at least six generations for what are the records that I can trace. I'm really happy to be the sixth one to still be connected with the use of the land, with the farming, even in this new dimension of living in different countries. It's like having the foot in two different shoes.
[0:03:00] AH: Now, I've been lucky enough to have been given a sample of your olive oil that you produced over there, which is really fantastic.
[0:03:06] TC: Really? That’s crazy.
[0:03:07] AH: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I do my research, don't worry, which is really wonderful. But olives and olive oil are just part of what your family grows. Yes?
[0:03:16] TC: Yes, olive oil is part of the cultivation, is very typical in the region. The Puglia region produces the 40% of the Italian olive oil production. Traditionally, every family in the farm in rural settings has an orchard of all the trees from where it is obtained, the olive oil for the annual use of the family. We are lucky enough in our family that the family use exceeds the 30 times the family needs. We sell and we promote also the olive oil culture with the extra olive oil that we produce.
[0:03:57] AH: It's my good fortune and getting my hands on a little bit of it. Talking about those deep roots, something that stood out for me the last time we spoke was, you talked about the changes you've seen in your own lifetime in that tradition from a very traditional approach to farming, to something that's a little bit different today.
[0:04:14] TC: Yes, I've been always intrigued about the change while growing up, because I've been the witness of the last segment or what we call in Italian, civiltà contadina, the peasant's civilization. The very focused agriculture type of organization of a society based on farming. I've been the witness of this passage between the civiltà Contadina to the new world of intense technological advance type of exchange. In this passage, I could see, like before my eyes, what was left behind. Somehow, this type of comparison made me think that, and concentrate my way of thinking, on how to preserve those values of the so-called tradition. We can talk about the concept of tradition, the way how I been elaborating the concept. And making sure that those values from the past, from the civiltà contadina will keep be transferring within the new world, and engaging, still engaging the communities.
[0:05:34] AH: It's a concept that's very familiar to a lot of people here in Niagara, I'm sure. Because as there, there's so many challenges facing family farms these days. One of the ones that is the case in Italy and across Europe, really, that we don't have to deal with here has been the impact of some of the European Union regulations and their impact on local food culture.
[0:05:58] TC: Yes, it's a common problem. The impact of the EU regulation in Europe as being pretty harsh in terms of the family-owned farm to be competitive in the market. That has been the major challenge. It’s [inaudible 0:06:14] like this in every part of the world. When there's globalization as offered, the opportunity of extending the reaching of new consumers, but at the same time has created some struggle. Some struggle in terms of competing with that market. It's to facing this type of problem that I came up with the idea of integrating the traditional values of the past, making sure that they will not disappear suddenly, but making them viable for the new contest, for the new market cup.
[0:06:52] AH: I can see how that became a very personal goal and cause for you. That takes us to 1989, when you founded Messors. Which is hard to believe I'm sure for you that that was 34 years ago. But if you can remember back that far, what were your main goals at that time? You had the passion for the preservation, but what did you really want to accomplish?
[0:07:12] TC: The idea of giving dignity to the work of the people, and the intention of the people that had brought to us that heritage. The idea of celebrating and honouring what we get from our ancestors and from people that precede us. Looking at my mom and my dad working so hard to keep floating in this new world, I could miss the challenges, and how dignity, and hard work will not be paid off if this type of approach was not put in place.
[0:08:00] AH: Tremendous way to look at it. I love your perspective. One of the things I appreciated about it is your approach to hands-on participation. In your case, it's specifically with the workshops and the field schools, which you offer to both local people and tourists. I think you and I would agree that's key, is letting people experience things in a tangible way like that.
[0:08:23] TC: Yes, it is. In this particular important, in such a rural context, it implies to basically give time to the person coming to experience, give the time to create a connection with the place, give the time for an opportunity to learn from the place, but the same time to give to the place. Because it's what we do when we go visiting. It's not just taking, but it's a reciprocal exchange. For example, if we think about shepherding, and the tradition of the transhumance, the practice of the transhumance. Moving the flocks from the hills to the plains, to the valleys in different type of season. It is exactly what we do in different way as humans when we travel from one place to another. We travel to nourish ourself of new knowledge, new experience, and at the same time, we leave on the spot, we leave where we go, on the places we visit also our thoughts, our economy, our ideas as well.
[0:09:45] AH: Something that I think about sometimes is something you said that really stuck with me as well that, when it comes to programs like this, connection is just as important as information.
[0:09:54] TC: Yes. It helps also the person that have the experience to connect with the materials of a place, because of the experience to be tactile as well. Also, to connect with the smells of the material, the smells of nature, whatever it is in the environment. So participating, meaning not just spend some time, but being involved in the –
[0:10:23] AH: Right, the difference between reading about the life of a shepherd, and walking in the shoes of the shepherd, where they've been walking for centuries.
[0:10:33] TC: Yes, exactly. Exactly. For example, when people come to experience our walking with a shepherd, they learn pretty fast that you have to come down. You have to make yourself be friend with the sheep, for example. Because the animals, they can detect immediately if you are an enemy or you are a friend. That's an important aspect because nobody can think like that before coming, before experience, that type of – he's going with the sheep.
[0:11:10] AH: One of your early projects was an ancient agricultural center at Masseria Jesce. What was special about that site? What drew you to that one?
[0:11:18] TC: Masseria Jesce is the site that was very inspirational for me, in terms of starting this project of rehabilitating an old site through participation. The site was owned and still is owned by the municipality of Altamura. The proposal of our organization to the city hall was to have the contract for a certain number of years, and work on the site with the volunteers in restoring the dry-stone walls, the courtyard, and cleaning the caves, and all the feature, the historical feature of this interesting historical site, dating back to the third century B.C. What was very intriguing was the certification, the historical certification of the site, which has also a cave with a Byzantine frescoes in it.
The architecture of the Masseria, the Masseria is a concept that started to develop in the 1500s, when the dune wheat production in Puglia becomes very important. And it's a place where the major organization or agricultural organization needs to set. Its facility to improve and in extensive way, the agricultural production of dune wheat. It evolved through since the 1500s to the 1600s, and so on. When that was acquired by the city hall, it was completely left abandoned. There was no real idea of how to rehabilitate and how to use the site.
We worked for 15 years and we were able to restore the 70% of the whole site. In those 15 years, the integration, thanks to 700 participants coming from all over the world. We were able also to give back to the site to the community. In terms that it became a site where during the summer, or occasionally during the winter as well was open to the public for visits, activities, concerts, and exhibition, and so on. There's been a lot of work done and very successful in terms of the amount of work that has been created by doing. So putting in place what we were envisioning, and creating a network, an interesting network, international network of collaboration and friendship.
The outcome is being exponential in many ways from the actual work that has been done to the giving back to the community, the site, to the connection. At the time when we left the project, it was 700 people. But today, with the continuing on the other site, and the site now we're working on Fornello site. After 34 years of activity, we have a connection with over 2,000 people all over the world, and this is the way how we got also in connection with Theresa Felicetti.
[0:14:40] AH: For those of you who don't know, Theresa is our Director of Programming here at The Brown Homestead, and one of her foundational experiences early on was travelling to Italy, and working with Tonio. When you talk about that big network, everything that was learned were real beneficiaries of that in a very direct way as part of why we're big believers in what you're doing there. And talking about that original project, it's really a wonderful project. As you said, so much great work was done in so many great relationships were made. One of the unfortunate parts of that is, it's not currently as available to the public, as I know you would have liked to see it, and I know that experience led you to change your approach a little bit, and that's reflected in how you approach the Fornello project.
[0:15:25] TC: The Masseria project had to come to an end for us, because that agreement that we wanted to reach with the city hall never came to a place, basically. This is a part of a limitation working with the governments, with institutions in general. Probably the lack of perspective, but also the fact that the administrations and boards of certain type of context, city halls, they change over time. They don't have a consistent presence, a consistent follow-up on projects.
[0:16:04] AH: Well, heritage work inherently requires long-term thinking and perspectives. What you're talking to, I think it's something we can relate to in Canada, even though there is, I think, a degree of goodwill among the people in power. There can sometimes be a bit of a disconnect between what they aim to do and want to do, and their ability to create a regulatory structure that actually has that impact at the end of the day.
[0:16:27] TC: Yes. I think one of the limitations, it's very simple. It doesn't have to be so complex. It's just the giving the opportunity to a local organization to be productive in the way how they operate. The facilitation is very simple. That's nothing really big to be made.
[0:16:48] AH: Support and facilitate the grassroots, people who want to get their hands dirty and do the work.
[0:16:53] TC: Exactly, and facilitate the grassroots, and create opportunity for working collectively toward a goal.
[0:16:53] AH: No, I agree, and making the best of that, that partnership between government and organizations like yours is really the best route forward. Now, in terms of Fornello, purchased the site in 2013 as I said. It also has a very early history and is known for the caves there and frescoes that if I remember correctly, date back as early as around 1100. Is that correct?
[0:17:23] TC: It is. It is. What is really interesting about Fornello is the fact that the site has been abandoned for at least 200 years. Everybody has been – since the late 1800s, has been studied by scholars, so site for the presence of the fresco. But one of the things in this case that we noticed, along with my colleague, Giovanni Ragone, which has been a long and consistent friend, and partner in all the projects since the beginning, since the creation of Messors. You could see, you could totally see that the disconnect was within the rural setting. Basically, the rural communities, the shepherd community, and the farmer community living in this [inaudible 0:18:16] could not recognize the side as their own reference anymore. Because it was completely left abandoned, and nobody will take care. It was something that didn't have a value anymore.
[0:18:35] AH: Sorry. What do you attribute that disconnection to? How did that disconnection come about?
[0:18:39] TC: It comes back to what was the conversation we were having before in regards of the dignity of the work of the people that is not valued at the market level, in a certain type of rural context. If the cost of the cheese is kept at the very minimal, survival will not give that kind of pride in the community to keep believing to be an important place with values.
[0:19:13] AH: That goes back to what you were talking about earlier, the importance of the focus, not just being on the preservation of the built heritage, or even the physical attributes of the site, which may be natural as well, but also on the preservation of that livelihood, in this case, of the local shepherds, and cheesemakers.
[0:19:33] TC: I believe it's fundamental, Andrew, because this is the consideration. If the site has been abandoned for over 200 years, it's because of the disconnect. The best way the best way to preserve the site for the future is to have the local community to be actually the guardian of that type of heritage. Any other type of form, and government, the up-to-down approach has been demonstrated is not successful as it will be instead a supported bottom-up approach. Fundamental to work in that way. Using at the same time, integrating the knowledge coming from the scientific world, from scholars, professional, integrating with the community.
[0:20:23] AH: That's one of the things I like about your workshop approach, is you do combine both of those. There's that learning element as well as the immersive experience. Something that Theresa commented on about her visit there was it was, she felt that sometimes it was as much about cooking and eating as it was about preservation and work.
[0:20:42] TC: Yes, because it's part of life, right? What I find that it's very exciting, what I like doing in the project is to experience different aspects of being on the site. The cooking, the cheesemaking, the involvement of the local shepherd in making the cheese in the traditional ways, or what we call traditional way. We can talk more about this. It's a way how – who have – participants who understand what is the connection, what is the connection with the landscape, and leaving that place, and how the food culture has been shaped, because of that type of connections.
[0:21:18] AH: It shapes how we connect to each other, right? Culture is about identity, and if we can share someone's experience, we can understand them better, we connect better, which we need more of in the world. Let's face it, there's the two best ways to connect with somebody is through music and food. Right?
[0:21:34] TC: I think it's fundamental, it's fundamental because – in a holistic approach that can make an experience valuable and memorable. At the same time, can be – it's an approach that can be shared. So people can – participants can go in their home contest, can do exactly the same approach and enjoy the experience with the type of approach. Because sometimes, what happens, it makes me – now, I have to cite David Lowenthal, "The past is a foreign country." Sometimes what we have as a notion that the past is really something that it's not part of us anymore. It's something that is it, even within it. We understand that we are part of the past. We are the past in the present form. That's a different way, different way how to look. It's more exciting. The past doesn't have to be this old, stinky situation to go visit once in a while. The past is within us, and the exciting thing is that we can transfer to the future, we can transfer to others.
[0:22:44] AH: Absolutely. The past isn't something in the story books, its lives lived, and experiences that lead to our own existence and experience, and we do carry those within us. Agree. Now, listening to us talk about it, you think this is sort of self-evident, but it really is a bit of an uncommon perspective, inherited sometimes. People like you and I, we believe this perspective, and we believe in the field school model, the value tangible experiences. How do we now persuade other people, not just other heritage organizations, but people in their communities to embrace that, and become that next grassroots movement, that next Messors who stands up and says, "This is a value and we're going to champion this"?
[0:23:32] TC: It's about, I believe creating the opportunity of knowing the outcome of a successful experience. The more we show that things are possible to achieve, through a field-school approach, for example, that the more people can have access to the tools. It's about showing the tools, giving the tools to other organizations, a new generation to work with it and not to – sometimes, the institutional approach takes away the tools from the community, from the new generation. Instead, I believe we need to give them, we need to give them the tools and the opportunity to operate.
[0:24:10] AH: Give them the tools, but also give them space, give them the opportunity to participate, and contribute, and share their experience, and their values, and help find that sway for it. I agree. I think when we talk about some of the issues we've talked about, regulations, government and so on, it's really about helping younger informed and connected generation take up those positions. Be it in in organizations like ours in government, et cetera, and share that perspective so that it does carry forward.
[0:24:42] TC: Correct. Exactly. Because demonstrating the things are possible, it's the best way to go. It's how government should – as I said before, should facilitate and create those kinds of opportunity. Because if we think, for example, so the concept of what this tradition, from the Latin word trādere, to trade, to pass on. That's the core of the concept. Tradition is not something that stays, and that doesn't change there forever. Another interesting expression that I like about tradition is to see tradition as an innovation that has been successful over time. So it's always something that actually changes and adapt to the new me, but it carries those genes, right?
[0:25:29] AH: It's a very important point, and I agree with you 100%. Closer you get to history, the more you realize it's not something static, it's something that was always changing. Change is always happening. History is always changing. Each generation has something new, and understanding that helps us see our connection to it, but also sees the value of it. That it has in educating us about guiding our own changes, the changes we're facing in our own current day. To understand how people have navigated those changes in the past helps us see a better way forward. That's one of the important things I find most valuable about, about heritage work.
[0:26:07] TC: Yes, it is quite interesting. For example, nowadays, we have to face, we have to operate in terms of conservation for historical site. We have to operate in an environment that has to be run in a sustainable way. I'm really happy to learn, for example, that the next Congress of the International Institute of Conservation in Lima in Peru is going to be based on sustainable conservation. All those elements are really interesting. It is challenging in our times, when we need to be productive. We need to be efficient, we need to be successful in terms of being had with numbers, and revenue, and everything connected with being competitive in this marketplace.
I believe even more interesting and to be challenged in creating sustainable way how to reduce emissions, on how to integrate traditional ways of land use in your marketplace, or how to conduct conservation operation using materials that are more traditional, rather than injecting new materials in the site.
[0:27:28] AH: You've hit the nail on the head, that's one of our big challenges today is finding that sustainable formula and those methods. I agree with you, I think that the – so much of the answer is in looking back at some of the traditional methods. Whether it's the actual method itself, or the perspective that comes from doing things in those traditional ways. There's room for technology and so on as well. It's about blending those things, and finding the better path, and the sustainable path, as you say. Definitely, your work is a great inspiration in that area, and why I find your perspective so important. I definitely encourage people to take a look, take a look at your website, messors.com and your social media. There is also a wonderful documentary from a few years ago called Shepherds in the Cave, about the site and the work. We'll put these links up on our website so people can check you out. Am I missing anything? How else can people follow what you're doing?
[0:28:22] TC: You're correct. I mean, through our website, messors.com. We have also an Instagram account, Messors.
[0:28:28] AH: I warn people, though, as soon as they started learning more, they're going to want to take that next step, and sign up, and come over, and see you in Italy for one of your fantastic workshops.
[0:28:37] TC: Yes, please. Everyone is welcome.
[0:28:40] AH: Now, everyone's welcome, but they better get moving because they do fill up very quickly. I know your summer art conservation workshops are mostly full for this year already, aren't they?
[0:28:50] TC: Yes, they are. We are very lucky in these terms. The workshop themselves are closed numbers, by the way. The maximum number of participants is 14 per worship. Space is very, very limited. But this is a choice, this is a choice, a way of operating. As I was saying before, can be challenging to think in this way, limiting the number of participations. But unfortunately, I mean, we cannot do differently. If we want to respect all the principles and all the idea we were talking before about sustainability, about [inaudible 0:29:27], about the outcome of an experience. It cannot be a group more than 14 people.
[0:29:37] AH: It has to be personal, yes. But those are, I think you're now registering those for 2024. There's also the Fornello Sustainable Preservation Project.
[0:29:46] TC: The Fornello Sustainable Preservation project for this year is working on the improvement and site improvement, which we are really happy of. We were able to install safety measures for a walking and operating safely within the cave for studying the frescoes. This improvement will help even more the continuation of the studies. We will be setting pretty soon, the international field school, interdisciplinary international field school based on deepening the studies, and then now on the frescoes. So we can come with a conservation plan that will be more extensive for a long period of time.
[0:30:38] AH: That's great for participants to have the opportunity to help build something like that, for that long-term sustainability plan.
[0:30:45] TC: Yes, I believe it's really exciting, especially because the idea is that, till now, what we've been witnessing is the creation of conservation projects, they last for because of the type of funding, because of the protocols that they are following certain procedures of funding. They need to be completed within two years. But we are in a context where the approach needs to be a long-term approach. The cave church with the frescoes, with the three layers just opposed, and with all the conservation problems that is affected by cannot be considered a museum where you can repair the roof and get in, and make an exhibition, and work. It's completely different. We are in different contexts. Very different, very innovative, but completely respectful and linked to the history of the site, and to the community, and respecting the community of the site.
[0:31:52] AH: A very special opportunity, not a lot of projects like that, that people get a chance to participate in. So really magnificent. Then, finally, there's the shepherds and food culture workshop, which I believe does have some space open this year, it's going to run in August this year and June of next year. Am I right?
[0:32:11] TC: Yes, yes, correct. The shepherds and food culture focus on the roots of the food practices. There's some cooking, there's some activity that it's about exploring as well. But more than everything, the approach, it's a hands-on approach in understanding what is involved in the cheesemaking, traditional way and in the innovative way. It's integrating the knowledge from the past, knowledge of the shepherds, the community living in these rural settings for hundreds of years, for thousands of years that it creates that kind of culture. Integrate them with the new knowledge that today we have about fermentation, about different way of aging, and so on. It's also promoting a new form and why not, new form of cheesemaking.
New products that can come from our experimentation, it's a way – what we like to do, for example is, after participating, they learn about the staple, the food staples from the Puglia region. They cook for the local, so they invite the locals to come for dinner. It's a kind of reversed way how to look at the food, the culture, and the perspective. While doing this shift while using this reversal in the dynamic, there's an interesting conversation that comes up in regards of traditional way.
[0:33:47] AH: As I said, I encourage people to come take a look and see what you're doing, read about it, learn about it, go to Italy and participate. These are really some unique opportunities, but also learning about the work that Tonio and his team are doing. It's inspirational, it inspires us at The Brown Homestead. I thank you for that. I encourage people to experience it just for that standpoint. They'll see their own cultural heritage a little differently. The more they learn about what you're doing, and they look around. Who knows, maybe we'll have a few more grassroots operations popping up here and there following in those footsteps inspired by what you're doing. We thank you for your work, and for joining us, and talking to us today, and sharing it with us.
[0:34:23] TC: Thank you so much for making this information available to your podcast, and congratulations for the work that you are doing at the Homestead. The series of podcasts that you have on and all what you do there is definitely an inspiration too for other people. So thank you, thank you for doing so, for the work you do too.
[0:34:43] AH: Thanks so much, and I look forward to seeing you again soon. The more we talk, the more I'm convinced I got to get over to Italy and participate in some of this.
[0:34:51] TC: Please. The sooner the better.
[ 0:34:54] AH: All right, absolutely. Hopefully soon. I know Theresa is itching to get back as well. We're going to make that happen too.
[0:34:59] TC: Absolutely. That will be a great pleasure.
[0:35:02] AH: Thank you so much.
[0:35:03] TC: Thank you so much for having me today.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:35:06] ANNOUNCER: Grazie. Thanks for listening. Be sure to subscribe today so you won’t miss our next episode. To learn more, or to share your thoughts, and show ideas, visit us at thebrownhomestead.ca on social media, or if you still like to do things the old-fashioned way, you can even email us at opendoor@thebrownhomestead.ca.
[END]